Comments on: You Know What They Say About Assuming…

By: Watchman4Jesus

Watchman4Jesus — Thu, 07 May 2009 19:07:47 +0000

That people want to be pointed out as new visitors, or don't.
That church is always within a building called a church
That the format is always in a particular order
That there is always a special person in charge and more important than all the others
That visitors are outsiders and not part of the family

By: Jim

Jim — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:31:21 +0000

I assume the worst scenarios.I've been in some terrible church situations.

By: Ben Anderson

Ben Anderson — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:31:07 +0000

assumptions I used to have:
- Christ did not establish a visible church
- that thousands of different sects of Christianity is necessary
- that John 6 is not meant to be interpreted literally
- that the early Church was fundamentalist

to my astonishment I found that I became convicted that Christ did establish a Church. This church subsists in the Catholic Church, which administers Sacraments necessary for salvation. The early Church identifies most closely with this modern day Catholic Church.

By: bryne lewis allport

bryne lewis allport — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:54:20 +0000

i think that i'll pass BeBryne.com, but i know it was an offering of love. not to mention, i'm cheating my way to glory here… i spent all day reading and writing on heidegger, so my dialogue level is set a little high. my brain isn't big, it's just swollen.

i can't really speak to what the episcopal church is doing as a whole, but our congregation really works at making the least in our own congregation feel welcome. we are very tolerant and inclusive of children and the disabled. my kids say that this is the first church they feel like they belong to too. the grace that's extended to them (to make noise, wiggle, even be bored or confused) let's them approach the liturgy on their own terms. i think this makes an impression on people looking in on our congregation.

also, our church is all about service to the community. i think it makes a big impression on the younger generation, not only when you put your values into practice, but when you practice your values together.

By: Dan Bryan

Dan Bryan — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:31:31 +0000

you're the blog master flex, not me. i suppose i tipped my hand, but yes i think that is true at least some of the time. i think sometimes the rising generations have stopped giving money because of the abuses they've seen, and unfortunately some aren't giving it anywhere.

but that's not the primary story i see. i have a great friend who gives money away like crazy mostly to actual people doing real work to make an impact in the world. i'm not implying that churches don't do real work – but there is an important shift here.

i think there is an emerging value in rising generations to give to causes, to give to real people/projects that they can touch/taste/see. i actually think its a great shift. i think that at times institutions have divorced from actual contact with need – and this has actually left us less generous.

the gift of treasure is not only a command its about a heart exchange. if it is only rite or ritual the heart exchange (and change) tends to be minimal. i think one of the best parts about this shift is that rising generations don't want to be robbed of this exchange.

will institutions take note? will they adapt and adjust? get smaller and flatter? i hope so – release people to touch real need around them and give generously – as institutions to themselves!

By: Ross_Hesseltine

Ross_Hesseltine — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:39:57 +0000

This is what interests me…as my church starts to venture into a new worship service.

By: Justin Wise

Justin Wise — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:14:44 +0000

C'mon now… You can't drop sweet gems of nectar like that one and not expect everyone to want more! We need more Bryne on BeDeviant.com. Matter of fact, it should be "BeBryne.com". What do you think of that idea?

You're Episcopalian, I'm Lutheran. We dig liturgy just like you guys. How are you "liturgizing" a younger generation in ways that you find effective?

By: Justin Wise

Justin Wise — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:11:26 +0000

What do you think, Dave? How do you implement change in a place that is quite comfy where it's at? You certainly don't want to "cut off your nose to spite your face," but are there ways to gently challenge the 'status quo' of the community you are in without marginalizing everyone in the community?

What places do you think do this well?

By: Justin Wise

Justin Wise — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:10:08 +0000

That's a really great question. I seem to find myself asking that a lot. We KNOW (or at least, think we know) that something is ineffective, yet we continue to do it… Why?

By: bryne lewis allport

bryne lewis allport — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:40:03 +0000

I'm episcopal so we're used to, but sometimes not good at, balancing the requirements of the liturgy with creating a welcoming congregation. The problem really goes beyond the possible exclusive character of religious practices. I think the american church as a body has ceased to value the liturgy's ability to disrupt us from our daily lives. Church service shouldn't be an experience seamless with our everyday lives. A quick survey of religious experience in the Bible would tell you that advent is disturbing. However, in order to make those experiences understandable and sharable, you need to adopt symbols and practices to memorialize and evoke advent. The problem is that eventually, the symbols and practices acquire an everydayness of their own. So the real balancing act is keeping liturgy sharable as a community while maintaining its essentially disruptive character while welcoming others to the community.

AND i just miss you.