Jennifer Knapp: “How am I perverted?”
Regardless of how you feel about Jennifer Knapp’s recent admission, she comes across confident, smart and collected.
In part two and three of this interview, in my opinion she sounds more Christ-like than the pastor she’s in dialogue with. Not because of his position, but because he has no willingness to listen to anyone else’s stance. To me, Pastor Bob is more concerned with being right than entering into another person’s story and loving them where they’re at–regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
In this whole interview, I think Ted Haggard comes off as the hero. Yes, that Ted Haggard. He shows up in part three. Ted’s reminder to us that we’re all in process is a message for the ages. Simply brilliant.
Here’s part one of the interview with Larry King. (This video links to parts two, three and four at the end).
Bottom line: This is a brilliantly messy issue. It is so much more than right and wrong.
I have been wrestling with all the comments about this subject and trying to take them in and form my own personal response as a minister. Justin let me respond to two things your short post above made me think about. (by the way i did go and watch all 4 videos).
1) “but because he has no willingness to listen to anyone else’s stance” I agree we need to listen more than we do in the Christian world. But at what point, are we allowed to speak? When is it time to instruct and hold each other accountable? Pastor Bob made a comment that he is trying to be a light in a dark place. The reality of this world is that Christians will always be the minority so at some point something we teach or hold dear is going to be socially unacceptable. We are called to listen and listen better than we have, but we are also called to speak. So I guess my first question is how do we speak, responsibly?
2)”loving them where they’re at–regardless of whether you agree with them or not” This gets me into the question of what it means to “love them.” I think you are close to crossing a line saying that loving someone means always being happy and joyous with that person. I think there are examples of God the son and God the father acting in non-joyous ways to people, but i would contend that they still loved them. I will love my 5 year old boy for eternity, but that does not mean that I will not correct him when he is about to do something wrong or potentially hurt himself. I think you see where i am going. I think we to better at loving than we have been as a community, but we must also realize that love is not always joyous.
Have to disagree with quite a few points. Loving someone where they are at, just “to love them” isn't real love. Listening to someone's story / view is a worthy suggestion, but we also have to realize that many “liberal minds” listen with an open mind and not just ears.
Jennifer stuttered throughout most of the interview, and didn't back any points she was making with scripture (from what I remember hearing).
Followers of Christ have to stand up and call sin what it is (whether Ted agrees or not). Pastor Bob was doing that, and clearly admitted to also being sinful himself.
Jennifer struggles with understanding what repentance really means. Forgetting that a true love of Christ leads to repentance. If repentance is rejected, then the individual takes the place of God. Most Christians, including myself, don't repent quick enough. But flat out saying that she's not sinning completely disregards the Word of God. More here – http://bit.ly/9PX1Gv
What a complex subject this is. I feel like Larry had way to many gotcha questions against Pastor Bob and explaining the complex nature of sin and what it does to your life is a little difficult to explain to a non-Christian crowd.
Then Larry says that Pastor Bob is judging Jennifer because he says that the lifestyle is wrong. Once again, when you pull out the “judge” word, you have to explain why you're not judging preventing you from really answering the question.
Really the conversation couldn't begin because Jennifer feels that homosexuality is ok, has no intent on changing that and Pastor Bob feels that homosexuality is not and has not intent to change. Haggard was way to politically correct to be honest.
I guess a question that I walk away with is, if you're being led by spiritual leaders that affirm sin, then is that leading you away from Jesus Christ? Are we not called to say something about that? If that means you get persecuted for that, is it not worth it?
Just some thoughts.
My question what is a Christian struggling with this issue supposed to do?
I think the issue boils down to what one considers sin.
Pastor Bob admitted that he sins every day of his life. He even admits to trying to do better (which, in the face of grace, is ironic at best).
Jennifer admitted, like you said, that she's in a same-sex relationship and has no intent on changing. She doesn't see being lesbian as a sin.
Haggard comes in and addresses both situations brilliantly. He says that Pastor Bob sins and is in process, learning how to allow his relationship with Christ to liberate him from that sin. He also says that Jennifer is in a similar relationship with Christ and that she should be allowed to go through the same process as Bob. I agree.
The real kicker with grace is its pervasive nature. Grace will pursue Bob and Jennifer both as they continue in a relationship with Christ. It may liberate them from some sins while others remain besetting. Grace, however, doesn't vanish.
You're right, though. This is terribly and wonderfully complex.
Gabe. my brother. Thanks for your words … Your voice is always welcome here!
“So I guess my first question is how do we speak, responsibly?”
Great, great question. As odd as it may sound, Ted Haggard totally nailed the “speaking responsibly” part. I believe this is a man who has been to the other side of hell and back and knows what it is to be rescued by God's grace. He gets the “messiness” of it all. Which is why he constantly brought Jennifer and Bob back to the whole relational aspect of the Christian faith.
How do we speak responsibly? We affirm what Jesus affirmed: Love for God, love for neighbor. As messy as that is, it's the only way to live. It's the way of Jesus!
“I think you are close to crossing a line saying that loving someone means always being happy and joyous with that person.”
I can see why you'd say that. I understand … Believe me! Too often, though, we're quick to pull err on the side of judgment rather than grace and mercy. That's my experience, anyway. Far too often we're lining up people in our crosshairs rather than putting the weapons down.
The reality in a situation like this (and most others) is that the contributing factors are so complex, it is nearly impossible to make a clear judgment of the situation. We are not the judger and weigher of hearts. That's God's clearly defined role. Our job, as commanded by Jesus, is to love God and love neighbor–and by “love” I mean treat someone in the same way we ourselves would want to be treated.
I guess I've learned the hard way that “tough love” in these kinds of matters rarely works. In most cases, it's counterproductive. When I survey the gospels, I see Jesus being opulent with mercy and grace. That's where I want to be. Why? Because that's the same measure people (and God) will use with me!
You ask great questions, Ryan. I'm with you……..
Best question of the day. Right here.
But see this is where Pastor Bob was attempting to go if he had not been cut off so many times. If you allow sin to reign in you, you can't have Christ reigning over you at the same time. I understand grace is always there but if you actively pursue sin, then it leads you to spiritual death. James 1:13-15.
This is where we constantly disagree because I feel like you overly allow grace to trump the actual acting out of sin. God does give grace to always turn back to Him but He also allows us to freely choose a path not of Him. I believe eventually sin undealt with does lead to spiritual death because it roots itself in you. That is the point Pastor Bob was attempting to make by saying he is sinful but always wanting to give it over to God.
Bob had every right to say, “Jennifer, you're in sin.” and she had ever right to say, “I disagree” but it certainly does not change what sin and truth are. Anyway, got off on a tangent haha.
Here's my point, though: If Jennifer is not convinced that this is sin (which she clearly doesn't), than it is not sin. At least not yet. Does that make sense?
John 16:8, Jesus says that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of its sin. That is the Spirit's work and the Spirit's work alone. Perhaps the Spirit, in his wisdom, has not convicted Jennifer of this sin … yet. Does that change the fact that she is in relationship with God and he with her? No.
Let's go one step further. Say that, for whatever reason, conviction does not find its way into Jennifer's life regarding same-sex attraction. Does this change anything in regards to her standing with God? I would venture to say, “no.” Why? Because I know that the day that I die, I will have sin in my life. Still. But I'll still be in relationship with Jesus, which is what brings one into eternal life. I'd venture to guess that Jennifer will still be in relationship with Jesus as well. If so, the same outcome–lesbian or not–prevails.
My point here is to not legitimize sin–homosexuality or otherwise (that's providing you believe homosexuality to BE a sin). My point is to highlight the grace and goodness of God.
“While we were yet STILL SINNERS….” His mercy and goodness pursue us through relationship with Christ. To me, the scary part in this interview would have been if Jennifer was lethargic towards her relationship with Jesus, not that she admitted to being a lesbian. She's with Jesus. We must trust in him to lead her along the way. I don't want to be Peter and look back at John and say, “What's he doing here?” only to have Jesus say, “What concern is that of yours? You are with me.”
“It is so much more than right or wrong.” Agreed. If that's all it was about, then God would have been content to just let us be cursed by the law. So, I'd be a fool to underestimate both my need for and the power of God's grace.
But:
Recently I've been thinking more about this question: What types of people are in danger of not “getting in?” You know, what types of people do Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the NT speakers/authors issue the strongest of warnings to and/or about?
Seems to be a few categories of people:
1. People who pride themselves in believing rightly and even living (relatively) morally but have zero desire or capacity to love (a.k.a. everyone's whipping boy, the Pharisee).
2. People who believe and spread false doctrine (a.k.a. the Judaizers).
3. People who have had some familiarity with God at one time, but have fallen away (Hebrews 6).
It seems like when we approach homosexuality, and specifically, when we approach heterosexual Christians' reactions to homosexual people, we love, love, love to harp on #1. Don't be Pharisaical. Love those who aren't like you. Kindness brings people to repentance. You're a sinner too, saved by grace. Yes and Amen.
But it seems like we have no idea what our responsibility is towards people who are in camp #2 or camp #3.
In fact, we're hesitant to put anyone in camp #2 or #3, for fear of falling into camp #1.
This is the problem with Pastor Bob: bud, if you actually believe that Jennifer is in danger of falling away, then actually talk to her like she is in danger. Don't worry about how you're perceived, what corner Larry is trying to back you into, or how many times Jennifer uses the phrase “sacred text.” If the train's bearing down on her, have a sense of urgency. No need to be apologetic. I think Jesus meant it when he said: “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.”
In my opinion, that's why this whole interview was pretty much doomed to begin with: a complete stranger to Jennifer was invited on to the show under the auspices of vying for her soul, when in reality he was vying for a stance, an interpretation, or a biblical principle. Now, I think it's the correct biblical stance; but there is nonetheless a huge dissonance there, because it feels inauthentic and a little like a bait-and-switch. You say that you're here because you genuinely care for Jennifer. No one's gonna believe that – I don't even believe that – because you don't know her from Eve (or Steve, Ellen, Adam… whatever homophobic cliche you want to employ from the creation account).
My longwinded way of getting to the point: I'd like to believe, Justin, that grace works it all out in the end, even for the unrepentant. In some sense, I do believe it. I know that I'll have sin in my life that I may either not see, nor be repentant of at the time of my death. And in that regard, I'm the same as Jennifer or any other person for that matter, regardless of their sexual orientation. I'm confident in the grace that is saving me.
But: from Scripture, and from my observation in life: unrepentance is dangerous. Really dangerous. Way more dangerous and powerful than we know, I think. And sometimes unrepentance, not grace, wins out.
I'll take it one step further: it seems like all too often, a specific unrepentance about homosexuality leads to a generally unrepentant life. Not always. Not in every case. But I'm thinking of names here – people that I know and love – people that I was and still am close with. For them, a decision to embrace their homosexuality as being morally neutral has had catastrophic effects on their faith. They thought that they could reconcile their decision with an authentic relationship with Christ. But they could not. And then they left.
And that really does break my heart. I don't know how I can get them back. I don't know if they'll ever come back. It's seemingly impossible, because they've rejected the one Way back. And the Way requires repentance.
In the overall situation with sin and its confrontation, the most effective way for any of us to confront or be confronted is through relationship. I can't agree with you, Justin, in regards to your comment that sin isn't sin until someone realizes that it's sin. I definitely think that God's grace opens our eyes to see the sin that we have in our lives, but there is a tension that we all live in between receiving God's grace and “pressing towards the mark” and allowing ourselves to be transformed into more Christ-like followers of Christ.
There's also a tension between our “celebrity fanatical” society. Clearly, Pastor Bob thought that he had a right to confront Jennifer publicly since she had been public in her “coming out.” Where do we draw the line? If a leader of your church were to publicly announce their sin and claim that they didn't see it as sin, would someone have the responsibility to call them out? Would we just sit back, continue to allow that person to lead other Christ- followers, and wait for God's grace to convict them? If I were in a place where I couldn't see my own sin, as a Christian leader, I would sort of expect that someone would lovingly come alongside me in a Matthew 18 sort of way. Problem is, how often do people do this lovingly?
I agree that Jesus and His grace is forever chasing us all as we continue on our Journey, but I don't think it's fair to say that the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted her yet of something… I think that falls more squarely on our shoulders. We must assume He was chasing her 10 years ago when all the rumors were flying and 8 years ago when her relationship started with her partner AND all the way to Australia 5 years ago. Maybe it was all the chasing that was the original cause of her “wrestling” and now she has given up, therefore no longer feeling “convicted”. After all she obviously found a community of faith that accepts her and tells her the “sacred texts” don't condemn her homosexuality so be free in it. Maybe it was this council that eliminated the conviction, or maybe she just gave up the fight with the Holy Spirit, I don't know… but I do believe she has battled conviction throughout this 10 year journey.
With that said, let me say… the church condemning her is not what she needs, but neither do any of us need someone to tell us its OK to be accepting of our disconnection to The Way God designed us to live in light of a “process”. I totally agree it's a process, but since when did the bible say the process is to be void of the others in our lives at times “telling us like it is”. Everyone wants to point the finger at the judgmental Pharisee's and claim Jesus rebuked them often for their judgment of others… truthfully he condemned them for their complacency and arrogance, thinking they had all the answers made them judgmental…
We don't need judgment we need love, but love doesn't allow us to stay in a place that is consistently opposite of The Way God Designed Us To Live. Love draws us back to that way and often love comes from the concerned voice of others. This interview nor the blogosphere was the place for Pastor Bob to speak in love : )
Peace
“Haggard comes in and addresses both situations brilliantly.”
If you mean brilliantly as a politician would to get people to like him, then yes, he was brilliantly politically correct.
If all we were to do is love as Jesus loved, why do we have thousands of other verses in Scripture that show us how to live? That show us how to put our love into action?
A Christian struggling with any issue (sin-related or not) should seek the Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. There is nothing wrong with getting wise counsel from others (I'd encourage it), but ultimately the Bible is Truth and the Holy Spirit must guide you as you study. Pray and seek, pray and seek, pray and seek.
Jesse
I think you bring to light some very powerful truths. Well said.
Let me see if I'm tracking with you…
As far as camps 1, 2, and 3 go, I think you've classified them well. We can all identify #1's easily and we, like you said, like to use them as punching bags.
Camp #2, I'm with you, but only to the point that the false doctrine involves issues of salvation. Judaizers (whom Paul addresses rather curtly in Galatians) and gnostics (whom John addresses in his epistles) were spreading false doctrine of how one was to be saved. That is dangerous. Homosexuality, at least to my knowledge, is not in danger of promoting a false salvation.
Camp #3 is scary when they stop caring about the relationship with God. I think that's what you're getting at. In that case, I agree with you. Apathy towards relationship with God is scarier than the most vile sin you can think of. However, I didn't see this in Jennifer. I could be wrong, but it seemed as though she was adamant about maintaining a relationship with God.
Like most posts, I often push farther than I actually believe. Why? Because it causes a stretch that is helpful. Like you, I have seen plenty of people embrace the homosexual lifestyle and abandon a life of faith. This, as you said, is sad and tragic.
Conversely, I've seen people desire to be in relationship with God but feel like they can't because they have same-sex attractions. This ought nought to be. I'm always going to err on the side of reaching out to people in that impossible situation. 10 times out of 10. Is this a little messier? Oh yes. But it's so much more worth it.
It's beyond tragic when someone feels as though they can't come to the throne of grace because of something they did–or are. That's counter-Gospel. It's counter-Christ. I want to stay as far away from this ditch as possible.
“To me, Pastor Bob is more concerned with being right than entering into another person’s story and loving them where they’re at”
Pastor Bob addressed all these concerns in that interview. 1. He started off by saying that he does love Jennifer and purposely said nothing about her sexuality despite knowing for 8 years. In addition to praying for her. 2. He specifically says that he is only concerned with the truth, which is God's Word.
This is why Jesus said this: Matthew 10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Jesus was saying this in the context of following His Word. It's where the rubber meets the road. Yes, Jesus is love. Yes, Jesus is merciful and forgiving of all (especially a wretched sinner like myself). BUT the forgiveness comes with the command to “sin no more.”
You say this is a “brilliantly messy issue.” What is messy about it? Where is there any confusion in the Bible, the actual Word of God, on this issue? In all of your posts I have yet to see you reference the Bible. And that is Pastor Bob's point. IF you are a Christian then it's not about how you feel. It's about the truth. And the truth is God's Word.
I don't believe being gay is some special sin that we have to single out above others. I witness the gospel to people on the street all the time. I NEVER mention homosexuality to someone who says their gay because it is not necessary just like I don't mention fornication to straight people. But that does not change the fact that they are both sins in the Bible. And Christians have a duty and command to turn from our sins. This does not mean we lose our desires. It means that we deny them (or try our best to) as a sacrifice to show we want Jesus Christ to lead us and not our own hearts.
Things are only confusing when we do not look to God's Word. What is your stance on what the Bible says?
“To me, Pastor Bob is more concerned with being right than entering into another person’s story and loving them where they’re at”
Pastor Bob addressed all these concerns in that interview. 1. He started off by saying that he does love Jennifer and purposely said nothing about her sexuality despite knowing for 8 years. In addition to praying for her. 2. He specifically says that he is only concerned with the truth, which is God's Word.
This is why Jesus said this: Matthew 10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Jesus was saying this in the context of following His Word. It's where the rubber meets the road. Yes, Jesus is love. Yes, Jesus is merciful and forgiving of all (especially a wretched sinner like myself). BUT the forgiveness comes with the command to “sin no more.”
You say this is a “brilliantly messy issue.” What is messy about it? Where is there any confusion in the Bible, the actual Word of God, on this issue? In all of your posts I have yet to see you reference the Bible. And that is Pastor Bob's point. IF you are a Christian then it's not about how you feel. It's about the truth. And the truth is God's Word.
I don't believe being gay is some special sin that we have to single out above others. I witness the gospel to people on the street all the time. I NEVER mention homosexuality to someone who says their gay because it is not necessary just like I don't mention fornication to straight people. But that does not change the fact that they are both sins in the Bible. And Christians have a duty and command to turn from our sins. This does not mean we lose our desires. It means that we deny them (or try our best to) as a sacrifice to show we want Jesus Christ to lead us and not our own hearts.
Things are only confusing when we do not look to God's Word. What is your stance on what the Bible says?