WTF! Jesus never said one word about gays!!! Not 1 word!!

I left the church and never went back. Bunch of lying mean, awful bigots. I now walk with Jesus.

WTF! Jesus never said one word about gays!!! Not 1 word!!

I left the church and never went back. Bunch of lying mean, awful bigots. I now walk with Jesus.

Crack kids, track kids, hookers and robbers
The naked and hungry, mothers and fathers
Abuses, excuses, and guns in your hands
And I even welcome the arrogant man
I welcome you all to the biggest of feasts
A night of no shame
To pause and to breathe
This is a night of love's renovation
A feast I am sure that could change a whole nation

Me, I am not such an excellent host
I am one who forgives but needs it the most
I found the liar, the killer of hearts
And I ran away with a new way to start
I journeyed a road where a bright man appeared
He looked into me, and my eyes filled with tears
My breath fast and short and my heart burning deep
He gave me new eyes and a new way to see

So come as you are, as you are, as you are
So come as you are, as you are, as you are

I still defiled his great love ways
I felt such a famine when I ran away
I missed the presence, the voice like a song
I was nasty and dirty, I knew I was wrong
But he ran to me like a dream like a father
This love is not earthly this love must be other
He carried me home and threw me a party
A party so loud like the greatest love story
Oh my dear friend applaud now please
I've invited you heart to announce you are free
He takes your chains, busting you out of prison
Just open your heart, let your heart come and listen

Come as you are, as you are, as you are
Come as you are, as you are, as you are

Who could accept all your pounding and screaming
Your raging, your freaking, cussing, and beating
All while He holds you and always forgiving
This is the story of love and of living
Wipe off your tears and laugh just a little
Come break this bread, celebrate the Forgiver
Raise up a glass, a time to remember
Come break this bread, celebrate the Forgiver

Come as you are, as you are, as you are
Come as you are, as you are, as you are

Justin, I full-hearted agree with both your posts, let me start off with that. You continually have SPIRIT-led post on here that express your views. I thank you for those posts, it helps me think with an open-mind. People will say what they want, think what they want, and tear into people as they see fit, because they can. Plain and simple, that's what the First Amendment of our constitution has granted us the ability to do. You will continue to write, I will continue to read. Justin, you are a man of GOD, and I believe that He is working through you for the greater good of our meek world. Amen.

To the rest of you, a few of your comments, to me, pass continual judgment on what you think God is saying to or through Justin Wise. So, to me, it would seem that you are doing the exact things that you are accusing Justin of doing (Romans 2:1-3).

Ellen's sins are no more sins than any of us getting on the I-235 and driving 70 mph. The posted speed limit, depending on the area is no more than 60. You are breaking the law. Breaking the law is breaking the law. Homosexuality is no more a sin than me coveting my neighbor's new pair of jeans. I am guilty of it, too. We are HUMAN, and we are IMPERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plain and simple.

Ellen's works are dead without faith, and my faith without works. I feel, this is what Justin may have in mind, is that a lot of Christians have a lot of faith and no works. But, I am not Justin, so that is my speculation into his mind.

But it's all good, because when I die, and I will, I will have to answer to my Creator for my actions, no one else's, MINE! And I will take, and am ready to take, full responsibility for my actions. ARE YOU?

The hornets' nest you stirred up was made up of little religious spirits — things like expressing mercy to non-Christians or a Christian wearing tats or sleeping in on a Sunday morning always stir up the little buggers.

One point about Mt 25, though. (All that follows is sheer, unbridled opinion… but maybe worth considering.) Obviously, doing good works is part of the message Jesus intended people to get there in Mt 25 — but you yourself know He wasn't preaching that people are SAVED because of their good works. (And, no, I don't think you were trying to say that, not at all.) But the first thing that leaps into the reader's mind there in those “sheep/goat” verses is the list of works Jesus gives. But the Key isn't in the works — but in the identification of Jesus with those for whom the works were done. It's right there: “In doing these works to them, you were doing them to Me.” For one thing, the works (the food, drinks, etc.) fall easily into the category of agapao Love. And the fact that Love expressed to the needy was EQUAL TO loving Jesus Himself, speaks of the UNION between Jesus and these needy brethren. (Can it NOT speak to this Union? What else could Jesus mean, if not?)

The true Key to the Mt 25 passage is the same that the apostle Paul focused on in 1Cor 11: “discerning the Body of Christ”. There in chapter 11, Paul is convincing the Corinthians Believers of the gravity of their sin — so grave, in fact, that amongst those who committed it, many had become weak, sick and some even had died. And what was the sin? It was the sin of “not discerning” the Presence of Jesus Christ in the midst of the Brethren. By His death He had made all those who were apart into “one loaf”, and to refuse to treat one another AS CHRIST was a refusal to honor Jesus Christ Himself. Because of the parallel nature of the 1Cor 11 and the Mt 25 passages, if you wonder what happened to the Corinthian “Brethren” who refused to SEE Christ in one another and HONOR His Presence in one another — Mt 25 shows us their destiny.

Back to “Ellen”: The Key isn't that one person does these works and another doesn't… The Key is that those who discern Jesus Christ in one another and minister TO HIM in one another are the “sheep” who are brought into their eternal reward. If a non-believer does good works, there will be some reward eternally, but not Eternal Life. But on the other hand, if someone claims to believe in Christ and claims to be “saved” and yet doesn't SEE Christ in one another and SERVE Him in the lives of one another — they're hypocrites destined to be cast out with the rest of the goats.

One last comment on non-believers who do good works (the “Ellens”): Jesus made it crystal clear that He has NOT come in judgment, but that That Day is reserved for some future time. (cf. Jn 3.17). Certainly there IS “judgment” at this time, but it's the by-product of Light revealing deeds of darkness. This “judgment” isn't the Work of God in this Age of Grace.

And if the Father is not in the “judgment business” yet and Jesus is not in the “judgment business” yet — who is? (cf. Rom 14. 10 and 8.34) Well, the Enemy is always ready to bring guilt and accusation against people, and then so are many Christians… (and is THIS a “partnership” made in Heaven?)

To the debaters: Conversations are productive, but when debates ensue we should quit. Arguments are never listened to.

Didn't mean to assume that I had you all figured out. Thought I was pretty careful to include some “ifs” along the way, rather than just assuming that I was tracking with you. My apologies if you felt like I made an assumption of having you all figured out and thus cheapening what you said.

I'm completely comfortable with the loose end of simply asking the question about Ellen's faith in light of the compassion that she is putting in display. Could she have a faith in Christ? Absolutely. She could. That doesn't throw me at all.

But it seems like you're comfortable hiding behind the loose end. The question really is, DOES she have a faith in Christ? It seems like the answer, according to at least one of your responders who cited some article from an interview that she did, is “no.” But, maybe that's wrong. Again, I'm not saying that we know for sure this is true/actually the case, but it's at least possible to know. If I knew Ellen personally, and asked her, “Hey – do you follow Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life?” She would say either “yes” or “no.”

What if she said “no?” And yet, she still continued to show these generous acts of compassion? Would you be forced to conclude that she has a faith in Christ, even though she says that she doesn't?

Isn't it possible that God could be inspiring these acts of generosity through her without her having a faith in Christ? Like Pharaoh with the Israelites, or like Cyrus with the exiles?

I'm not making a judgment about Ellen's soul. I'm not her judge. I don't have the power to send anybody anywhere for anything after they die. Hear me on that.

I'm comfortable with looking at her compassion and wondering “might Ellen be on her way to following Jesus?” I'd pray for her compassion to be part of a journey towards a relationship with Jesus, absolutely.

But to simply say that “this is a loose end” and that you just can't know… well… just isn't true.

To begin with, although I agree with your statement of John 14:6, that Christ is the only way to salvation, and also with Matthew 7:13-14 that the path to Him is narrow, we must be careful as to what we define as narrow. I believe narrow does not mean “one way and one way only.” I would read narrow as difficult, obscure, challenging, treacherous. I think these are far better definitions of this passage, because to follow Jesus is dangerous and arduous. But in light of John 14:6-8, how are we to define coming to the Father through Christ? Essentially, our definition of that statement determines whether we can accept more than one Christian worldview or not.

Let's take a classic debate of Christian theology, Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Clearly both sides have good Biblical support for their doctrines, but this argument has gone on for centuries with no resolution because our finite Western minds can't handle the notion that perhaps the answer is not either/or but a both/and. I picture if I were to ask God whether the Calvinists or the Arminians got it right, He would say, “Yep!”

I think even God himself would affirm that there is not one and only one Christian viewpoint nor should there be. It denies the infinite nature of God and our finite minds, it also denies the fact that we live in different cultural contexts and it is completely naive to think that one viewpoint of God does Him justice or is even an effective way to do ministry.

And now for point two, this can easily be summed up by the verse quoted several times in all the comments to this in Matthew 7:21. Clearly here are men who thought they were aligned with Christ, who Christ himself denies. Logic tells me the opposite is probably true then, too. That there are people who don't think they are aligned with Christ who possibly are. Which of course leads itself to my first question, “What IS acceptance of Christ as Savior?” You and I don't get to decide that ultimately, regardless of how we interpret Scripture, for one day we will all stand before the blinding Light of God and He will judge us, and He will tell us who did or didn't follow Christ.

In Love and Peace,
Kyle