Ellen Part Two
It’s been an interesting 24 hours, to say the least.
This may sound unbelievable to some, but I believe the post from yesterday, “Why You’ll See Ellen DeGeneres in Heaven” was Spirit-led. A further explanation of how it came into being is later in the post.
Having said that, I feel some clarification is in order. I’m a huge fan of clarity. So, for the people who won’t read any further than this first paragraph, allow me to make crystal clear what I believe:
Jesus is Life. The Rest is Just Details.
There is no other way to get to heaven besides Jesus (Jn 14:6). That language is crude, to talk of Jesus as a means to “get” somewhere (Jesus is the destination–all of creation finds its purpose in him [Col. 1:17]), but I’m speaking as base-level as possible. You cannot work your way into heaven (Eph. 2:8-9). I do not believe this (I’m Lutheran, for Pete’s sake!) Faith in Christ is all that we need, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). Faith that says, “Yes, Jesus. I believe you came to show me a new reality–one where relationship with God and freedom from brokenness is possible. Let’s go!” It is joining in his death through the waters of baptism and being raised to new life with him through his death and resurrection (Eph. 2:4-6). Without this, we’re sunk (1 Cor. 15:19).
A New Creation.
In that same vein, faith in Christ is more than just a mental assertion to a set of doctrinal believes. It must be (Jas. 2:20). Faith in Christ means our lives should look qualitatively different than those who do not have faith (2 Cor. 5:17). I have always loved how the Amplified Bible defines faith, “adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth”. When we put our faith in Christ–when we adhere to him, trust in him, rely on him for truth–we are made into new creations. A new being comes into existence (2 Cor. 5:16-18).
This is a “both/and” process–sometimes known in the church as justification and sanctification. It is what Luther called simil iustus et peccator–”simultaneously both sinner and saint.” This means that we have a good relationship with God (Rom. 5:1) but continue to be freed from besetting brokenness as we submit our lives to Christ (Rom. 7:14-20). As a result of being that new creation, our lives become filled with the fruit of salvation. The Holy Spirit in us begins to produce all kinds of wonderful, God-pleasing fruit (Gal 5:22-23). This is a work of God, not the person (Eph. 2:5; 2:8-9; Acts 15:11; 1 Pet. 1:5).
Ellen as a Sign.
When we look at a Ellen, we have no way of knowing what her relationship with God looks like. We can speculate (which I did yesterday), but we do not get the privilege to weigh her heart (Prov. 21:2). Regardless of what she believes, however, Ellen is exhibiting characteristics of a redeemed person. That’s not to say she is redeemed, but it’s not to say she isn’t either. In the same way that an atheist helping an elderly man cross the street exhibits goodness and kindness (both fruits of the Spirit–Gal. 5:22-23), so does Ellen when she gives away money, possessions, etc. (love, joy, etc.).
Ellen produces much fruit. Sometimes more so than the most zealous, passionate self-proclaimed Christian you know! This is an observable fact. This is a sign–a challenge to those of us who would consider ourselves followers of Jesus.
The challenge goes like this: If this is someone whom the Church typically identifies as a “them” and not an “us,” and she’s doing all of these good works, what does that say about my faith? For faith without good works is no faith at all (Jas. 2:20). Again, I have no idea where Ellen is at spiritually. To be fair, netiher do you. But when I look at her life (at least the portion she allows us to see), I see someone who produces much more fruit than I do on a daily basis. That challenges me–it should challenge you too, Christian. That challenge is good.
Faithful Ponderings (Out Loud)
Hear me loud and clear: I never would suggest that one can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven without Jesus. Ever.
There is a tension, however–a biblical tension–that remains between faith in Jesus and the fruit of our lives. I want to acknowledge that tension. One cannot have faith and do no good works, nor can one do good works and automatically have faith. Jesus himself said plainly, “You can identify people by their actions.” I’m sorry if that’s troublesome–or worse yet, messy–to some of you, but to assert anything different is unbiblical.
This post originated after a message I gave on mercy. I spent some considerable amount of time in the Gospels looking at the mercy of Jesus and what it did to people. How it changed their lives. What they looked like before and after an encounter with Jesus. Further, how Jesus does not discriminate who he gives mercy to. God’s Word challenged me in such a way that I’m still reeling from it. After all, it was Jesus himself who said, “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’” (Or if you prefer his half-brother’s explanation, “Mercy triumphs over judgment!“)
The simple truth that I found was that people’s lives looked different after they met Jesus. My question with Ellen is, “What if we’re seeing a life that has been changed by Jesus?” It’s not unfaithful to ponder this. Out loud, even. Are there things in her life that I see which I’d rather not see? Sure. But the same is true of my life. And yours. But in no way am I suggesting that the works I see in her life are somehow earning her a spot in heaven. The distinction is subtle, but crucial. I hope you can hear my heart in the difference between the two.
The Sin of the Sinner’s Prayer
I refuse to believe that faith in Christ is simply a prayer that one utters and is “in”. That’s offensive to the Cross and degrades Jesus into a one-trick magician. Anyone who is serious about following Christ should think the same thing. Jesus has changed my life in such a way that I cannot tolerate the idea of “sinner’s prayer” theology. Life with Christ is much more than that.
Life with Christ, as I’ve stated before, means living differently. The Spirit of Jesus in us must change the way we live. If it doesn’t, we should probably question if we have God’s life-giving Spirit in our lives. This is what I believe Jesus is referring to when he says, “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.”
This open letter is getting long. Hopefully this has given those with sincere doubts about the soundness of my faith some respite. I want to thank those of you who contacted me privately with your concerns via email or direct message. It is because of you that I wrote this post. You are the definition of Matthew 18! Thank you.
If the tone of the comments on the original post continue to spiral downward, I will close them. Constructive theological dialogue is what this site is about. Trashing another person because they don’t think like you is not.
when nicodemus asked jesus how to be born again, Jesus answered that the spirit moves like the wind, going where it will and bringing new life with it. thank you justin for asking us to pay attention to the work of the spirit where ever it manifests itself.
One word….boooyah.
Do what I can, gir!
BOOMshackalacka.
I think the best part of this post is the “Sin of the Sinner's Prayer.” You could write an entire post on that alone. If there was anything that I would criticize about the Billy Graham crusades it would be this, that they simply said a prayer, said you were saved and then trumpeted how many people were saved that day. Christianity, while as simple as a prayer, has to have good fruit behind it. Many churches simply want the prayer but do not encourage an active lifestyle behind it.
Even if Ellen were not a Christian, she is putting many Christians to shame by some of her acts. If anything, Christians should want to do better than what Hollywood is doing in social justice and good works. They should be compelled to want to represent the Kingdom of God better than what we do. That alone should bring appreciation for a thought provoking post that you wrote.
well said, you put into words exactly what I was thinking…
Unless u've invested in a “jump to conclusions mat” i still think it's incredibly difficult to say difinitively that someone you don't know is going to heaven based on a segment of her TV show. the money and items that she gives away i'm pretty sure aren't coming directly out of her pocket she has sponcers that donate that type of stuff to get their name mentioned on national television. and maybe she thinks she is earning her way into heaven by trying to be a good person maybe she's doing it so people will think she's awesome (I used to have a pastor that would say “only God is awesome” all the time). the point is man looks on the outside and God looks on the heart. i also think “judge not lest you be judged” can aply here… true that the “good” that she does is more charitable than some churches but that should be a challenge to Christians to make a diference in their community and share Jesus with the hurt, the needy, the widdows, and the orphans. i don't see evidence that Ellen is pointing these people to the cross. Opera does the same type of charitable work on her show but has openly said that there many ways to heaven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA).
THIS POST: “But in no way am I suggesting that the works I see in her life are somehow earning her a spot in heaven. “
LAST POST: “When Jesus looks at the heart of Ellen, I think he sees some really good fruit. And that’s why you’ll see Ellen DeGeneres in the Kingdom of Heaven.”
Sorry Dude, that's exactly what you said. I like this post, but it's a contradiction to your first post, which as you know, I didn't care for.
Thanks for sharing your heart Justin, I think this is a great discussion and agree with everything you said. One question I've had lately is about when people who may not be Christians do “good” is this still from God since apart from God we can do nothing and every good thing comes from the Father? Does God bless and use non-believers? As a Christian, I believe everything good that I do comes from Christ in me, but what does this look for someone who doesn't believe?
I also said this:
“When we look at a Ellen, we have no way of knowing what her relationship with God looks like. We can speculate (which I did yesterday), but we do not get the privilege to weigh her heart (Prov. 21:2). Regardless of what she believes, however, Ellen is exhibiting characteristics of a redeemed person.”
How is that unclear to you?
You did a good job clearing up things in this post. It was the emphasis of your last post that I (and many others) took issue with. If you had balanced your last post a little more, I probably wouldn't even blink, but it seemed to me (and many others) that you put virtually no emphasis on accepting Christ as a “MUST” to get into Heaven in your last post. I understood what you were trying to say, I just don't think you said it very wisely.
Communication 101: It's not what you're saying, it's what they're actually hearing that's important.
Define “accepting Christ.”
We are Christians not PERFECT people! Therefore, unlike Gandhi, who was not a Christian and already aligned with the Devil (if you are not Christian your only other option in the Christian viewpoint to to be aligned with the Devil) Christians face persecution from the Devil and that knocks us down. But really people are so eager to bring Christians down that they just focus on everything that a Christian does wrong instead of focusing on what is good in their life because the Devil has their mind. Again, THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH JESUS!!!
I need to vehemently oppose these notions: 1) That there is only one (correct) Christian viewpoint, and 2) That the only correct standing in this viewpoint is that either a person is aligned with Christ or aligned with the Devil.
To begin with, although I agree with your statement of John 14:6, that Christ is the only way to salvation, and also with Matthew 7:13-14 that the path to Him is narrow, we must be careful as to what we define as narrow. I believe narrow does not mean “one way and one way only.” I would read narrow as difficult, obscure, challenging, treacherous. I think these are far better definitions of this passage, because to follow Jesus is dangerous and arduous. But in light of John 14:6-8, how are we to define coming to the Father through Christ? Essentially, our definition of that statement determines whether we can accept more than one Christian worldview or not.
Let's take a classic debate of Christian theology, Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Clearly both sides have good Biblical support for their doctrines, but this argument has gone on for centuries with no resolution because our finite Western minds can't handle the notion that perhaps the answer is not either/or but a both/and. I picture if I were to ask God whether the Calvinists or the Arminians got it right, He would say, “Yep!”
I think even God himself would affirm that there is not one and only one Christian viewpoint nor should there be. It denies the infinite nature of God and our finite minds, it also denies the fact that we live in different cultural contexts and it is completely naive to think that one viewpoint of God does Him justice or is even an effective way to do ministry.
And now for point two, this can easily be summed up by the verse quoted several times in all the comments to this in Matthew 7:21. Clearly here are men who thought they were aligned with Christ, who Christ himself denies. Logic tells me the opposite is probably true then, too. That there are people who don't think they are aligned with Christ who possibly are. Which of course leads itself to my first question, “What IS acceptance of Christ as Savior?” You and I don't get to decide that ultimately, regardless of how we interpret Scripture, for one day we will all stand before the blinding Light of God and He will judge us, and He will tell us who did or didn't follow Christ.
In Love and Peace,
Kyle
I believe there is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life, at least right now (one day they will fully merge). The Kingdom of Heaven occurs, here on earth, anywhere God's will is done. All good things come down from our Father of heavenly lights (James 1:17). These good things happen through followers of Christ and anyone else who participates in good. But Jesus challenges us more deeply, as you've mentioned Justin. The point of decision comes in this: there is a specific invitation from Jesus to live in that Kingdom now, in our earthly lives, by walking the road into what he calls eternal life. This is the definition – John 17:3 “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” As Christians we should enourage and do great things in the name of God but never forget that our highest calling is to live an eternal life knowing Jesus through a personal relationship with Him. We must be careful not to say that current good works indicate anything in particular. I see many people doing beautiful things for this world, even though they do not know Jesus. All it indicates is that they are human, and therefore, made in the image of God, and therefore, good works can certainly flow from them. Praise God for that! Yet, we must be moved with hearts of concern and love for their eternal existence as well. And, that, comes through a personal walk with our precious Lord and Savior. And, as you have said so well in everything above, Justin, from that relationahip great works of God will flow. From that precious communion with the great Master of the Universe, our lives will look wholly and completely different than someone who is not connected to the Lord. Thanks for a great discussion.
I'd love to hear about the assumptive jumps that I made – sincerely. As I look back at the flow of what I said, I'm unable to identify them. What were they from your perspective?
Didn't mean to assume that I had you all figured out. Thought I was pretty careful to include some “ifs” along the way, rather than just assuming that I was tracking with you. My apologies if you felt like I made an assumption of having you all figured out and thus cheapening what you said.
I'm completely comfortable with the loose end of simply asking the question about Ellen's faith in light of the compassion that she is putting in display. Could she have a faith in Christ? Absolutely. She could. That doesn't throw me at all.
But it seems like you're comfortable hiding behind the loose end. The question really is, DOES she have a faith in Christ? It seems like the answer, according to at least one of your responders who cited some article from an interview that she did, is “no.” But, maybe that's wrong. Again, I'm not saying that we know for sure this is true/actually the case, but it's at least possible to know. If I knew Ellen personally, and asked her, “Hey – do you follow Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life?” She would say either “yes” or “no.”
What if she said “no?” And yet, she still continued to show these generous acts of compassion? Would you be forced to conclude that she has a faith in Christ, even though she says that she doesn't?
Isn't it possible that God could be inspiring these acts of generosity through her without her having a faith in Christ? Like Pharaoh with the Israelites, or like Cyrus with the exiles?
I'm not making a judgment about Ellen's soul. I'm not her judge. I don't have the power to send anybody anywhere for anything after they die. Hear me on that.
I'm comfortable with looking at her compassion and wondering “might Ellen be on her way to following Jesus?” I'd pray for her compassion to be part of a journey towards a relationship with Jesus, absolutely.
But to simply say that “this is a loose end” and that you just can't know… well… just isn't true.
I follow your thoughts and tend to agree.
To the debaters: Conversations are productive, but when debates ensue we should quit. Arguments are never listened to.
Atta-boys for your Ellen posts! Gotta tell you that you're both Just and Wise, young man… Your defense of “Ellen” was clear and simple: you were using her as a stereotypical 'evil' person who actually does the kinds of stuff followers of Christ should be doing. The “offense” apparently felt by so many (self-confident, self-congratulatory) Christians who responded to you (six-guns blazing) is roughly comparable to the response Jesus SOUGHT when He threw the Good Samaritan in the faces of the religious hypocrites of His day. (Their pre-judgment was the same as with Ellen: “No WAY could that Samaritan be right with God! No way!”)
The hornets' nest you stirred up was made up of little religious spirits — things like expressing mercy to non-Christians or a Christian wearing tats or sleeping in on a Sunday morning always stir up the little buggers.
One point about Mt 25, though. (All that follows is sheer, unbridled opinion… but maybe worth considering.) Obviously, doing good works is part of the message Jesus intended people to get there in Mt 25 — but you yourself know He wasn't preaching that people are SAVED because of their good works. (And, no, I don't think you were trying to say that, not at all.) But the first thing that leaps into the reader's mind there in those “sheep/goat” verses is the list of works Jesus gives. But the Key isn't in the works — but in the identification of Jesus with those for whom the works were done. It's right there: “In doing these works to them, you were doing them to Me.” For one thing, the works (the food, drinks, etc.) fall easily into the category of agapao Love. And the fact that Love expressed to the needy was EQUAL TO loving Jesus Himself, speaks of the UNION between Jesus and these needy brethren. (Can it NOT speak to this Union? What else could Jesus mean, if not?)
The true Key to the Mt 25 passage is the same that the apostle Paul focused on in 1Cor 11: “discerning the Body of Christ”. There in chapter 11, Paul is convincing the Corinthians Believers of the gravity of their sin — so grave, in fact, that amongst those who committed it, many had become weak, sick and some even had died. And what was the sin? It was the sin of “not discerning” the Presence of Jesus Christ in the midst of the Brethren. By His death He had made all those who were apart into “one loaf”, and to refuse to treat one another AS CHRIST was a refusal to honor Jesus Christ Himself. Because of the parallel nature of the 1Cor 11 and the Mt 25 passages, if you wonder what happened to the Corinthian “Brethren” who refused to SEE Christ in one another and HONOR His Presence in one another — Mt 25 shows us their destiny.
Back to “Ellen”: The Key isn't that one person does these works and another doesn't… The Key is that those who discern Jesus Christ in one another and minister TO HIM in one another are the “sheep” who are brought into their eternal reward. If a non-believer does good works, there will be some reward eternally, but not Eternal Life. But on the other hand, if someone claims to believe in Christ and claims to be “saved” and yet doesn't SEE Christ in one another and SERVE Him in the lives of one another — they're hypocrites destined to be cast out with the rest of the goats.
One last comment on non-believers who do good works (the “Ellens”): Jesus made it crystal clear that He has NOT come in judgment, but that That Day is reserved for some future time. (cf. Jn 3.17). Certainly there IS “judgment” at this time, but it's the by-product of Light revealing deeds of darkness. This “judgment” isn't the Work of God in this Age of Grace.
And if the Father is not in the “judgment business” yet and Jesus is not in the “judgment business” yet — who is? (cf. Rom 14. 10 and 8.34) Well, the Enemy is always ready to bring guilt and accusation against people, and then so are many Christians… (and is THIS a “partnership” made in Heaven?)
Ya know, I'm probably off my rocker for saying this, and maybe it'll get some comments that I won't ever read from people I've never met. But here is the deal…
Justin, I full-hearted agree with both your posts, let me start off with that. You continually have SPIRIT-led post on here that express your views. I thank you for those posts, it helps me think with an open-mind. People will say what they want, think what they want, and tear into people as they see fit, because they can. Plain and simple, that's what the First Amendment of our constitution has granted us the ability to do. You will continue to write, I will continue to read. Justin, you are a man of GOD, and I believe that He is working through you for the greater good of our meek world. Amen.
To the rest of you, a few of your comments, to me, pass continual judgment on what you think God is saying to or through Justin Wise. So, to me, it would seem that you are doing the exact things that you are accusing Justin of doing (Romans 2:1-3).
Ellen's sins are no more sins than any of us getting on the I-235 and driving 70 mph. The posted speed limit, depending on the area is no more than 60. You are breaking the law. Breaking the law is breaking the law. Homosexuality is no more a sin than me coveting my neighbor's new pair of jeans. I am guilty of it, too. We are HUMAN, and we are IMPERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plain and simple.
Ellen's works are dead without faith, and my faith without works. I feel, this is what Justin may have in mind, is that a lot of Christians have a lot of faith and no works. But, I am not Justin, so that is my speculation into his mind.
But it's all good, because when I die, and I will, I will have to answer to my Creator for my actions, no one else's, MINE! And I will take, and am ready to take, full responsibility for my actions. ARE YOU?
Reminds me of one of Charlie Hall's songs, “Hookers & Robbers,” that we played at Hope NorthBranch one Sunday before communion. =)
Crack kids, track kids, hookers and robbers
The naked and hungry, mothers and fathers
Abuses, excuses, and guns in your hands
And I even welcome the arrogant man
I welcome you all to the biggest of feasts
A night of no shame
To pause and to breathe
This is a night of love's renovation
A feast I am sure that could change a whole nation
Me, I am not such an excellent host
I am one who forgives but needs it the most
I found the liar, the killer of hearts
And I ran away with a new way to start
I journeyed a road where a bright man appeared
He looked into me, and my eyes filled with tears
My breath fast and short and my heart burning deep
He gave me new eyes and a new way to see
So come as you are, as you are, as you are
So come as you are, as you are, as you are
I still defiled his great love ways
I felt such a famine when I ran away
I missed the presence, the voice like a song
I was nasty and dirty, I knew I was wrong
But he ran to me like a dream like a father
This love is not earthly this love must be other
He carried me home and threw me a party
A party so loud like the greatest love story
Oh my dear friend applaud now please
I've invited you heart to announce you are free
He takes your chains, busting you out of prison
Just open your heart, let your heart come and listen
Come as you are, as you are, as you are
Come as you are, as you are, as you are
Who could accept all your pounding and screaming
Your raging, your freaking, cussing, and beating
All while He holds you and always forgiving
This is the story of love and of living
Wipe off your tears and laugh just a little
Come break this bread, celebrate the Forgiver
Raise up a glass, a time to remember
Come break this bread, celebrate the Forgiver
Come as you are, as you are, as you are
Come as you are, as you are, as you are
After hearing the church bash gays for so long, I decided to open the good book myself and see just what Jesus said about homosexuals in the bible so I could WWJD.
WTF! Jesus never said one word about gays!!! Not 1 word!!
I left the church and never went back. Bunch of lying mean, awful bigots. I now walk with Jesus.
After hearing the church bash gays for so long, I decided to open the good book myself and see just what Jesus said about homosexuals in the bible so I could WWJD.
WTF! Jesus never said one word about gays!!! Not 1 word!!
I left the church and never went back. Bunch of lying mean, awful bigots. I now walk with Jesus.