Comments on: Bi-Vocationalism and the New Pastor http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor Faith & Culture Sun, 24 Apr 2011 04:29:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Tony Jones http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-5290 Tony Jones Sat, 09 Oct 2010 11:57:59 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-5290 Love it.... Love it….

]]> By: Tony Jones http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-5289 Tony Jones Sat, 09 Oct 2010 11:46:23 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-5289 I have a dream of a NON-vocational staffed church. Bi-vocational is a great step in that direction. My pastoral friends seem to want to be regarded as regular people and not put on a higher 'holy' ground. What better way to mix with and understand our communities than to live life with and like them? If a large church has hundreds of ministries, as well as a board all led by working volunteers, then why not a volunteer pastoral staff? Too much work to do? Then, double or triple the staff. (see why I call it a dream) Too Hard?? wahh.... Do lay servants have it easy? Is it supposed to be easy? As a lay servant, God, church and family are priorities, yet they must put most of their time into their vocation to support family and church. Lay people work, go to school, pray, Bible study, family ministry, visit people in need, time with spouse, serve on boards, lead youth groups, bible studies, help with church maintenance, serve at the local shelter. Didn't I hear about a concept called - Priesthood of the Believers? Lay servants are being pulled in a thousand directions by competing priorities, and not a dime is ever considered going thier way, rather they are expected (and do) give significantly of the resources from these 'jobs' towards the churches where they serve so tirelessly. There would be challenges, but wouldn't it be cool to pull down the veil between staff and lay leadership? Messy, difficult, yet rewarding healthy and effective in so many ways. In my relationships with students, I hear the echos of the conversation you mentioned. The students are challenged with their desire to serve God in such a deep and special way that they want their education and 'job search' process to differentiate from the secular world. (Go to school, get a bunch of student loans, find an underpaid job at a church, work, get paid, go in more debt) They are expressing that the schools are teaching this process due to the drive to succeed, as a 'job factory' rather than to train and teach people to spread the gospel. It seems mundane and not an organic Godly inspired process to them. They want to live out their calling in freedom, and serve the church. They want to go to school to learn Jesus way, learn their calling, and be trained up to fulfill their call. They are wanting to serve God - in ministry, where they might somehow in life be blessed with resources to sustain them, not be shackled by a paycheck. Can't predict how the next generation church will look, but I appreciate that they are wrestling with this. I definitely see some creative church models in the future, which is exciting, because that means our methods are staying fresh with our culture, and our churches will not fade away, yet the gospel is always the same! Thanks for your thoughts, Tony I have a dream of a NON-vocational staffed church. Bi-vocational is a great step in that direction. My pastoral friends seem to want to be regarded as regular people and not put on a higher ‘holy’ ground. What better way to mix with and understand our communities than to live life with and like them? If a large church has hundreds of ministries, as well as a board all led by working volunteers, then why not a volunteer pastoral staff? Too much work to do? Then, double or triple the staff. (see why I call it a dream) Too Hard?? wahh…. Do lay servants have it easy? Is it supposed to be easy? As a lay servant, God, church and family are priorities, yet they must put most of their time into their vocation to support family and church. Lay people work, go to school, pray, Bible study, family ministry, visit people in need, time with spouse, serve on boards, lead youth groups, bible studies, help with church maintenance, serve at the local shelter. Didn’t I hear about a concept called – Priesthood of the Believers? Lay servants are being pulled in a thousand directions by competing priorities, and not a dime is ever considered going thier way, rather they are expected (and do) give significantly of the resources from these ‘jobs’ towards the churches where they serve so tirelessly. There would be challenges, but wouldn’t it be cool to pull down the veil between staff and lay leadership? Messy, difficult, yet rewarding healthy and effective in so many ways. In my relationships with students, I hear the echos of the conversation you mentioned. The students are challenged with their desire to serve God in such a deep and special way that they want their education and ‘job search’ process to differentiate from the secular world. (Go to school, get a bunch of student loans, find an underpaid job at a church, work, get paid, go in more debt) They are expressing that the schools are teaching this process due to the drive to succeed, as a ‘job factory’ rather than to train and teach people to spread the gospel. It seems mundane and not an organic Godly inspired process to them. They want to live out their calling in freedom, and serve the church. They want to go to school to learn Jesus way, learn their calling, and be trained up to fulfill their call. They are wanting to serve God – in ministry, where they might somehow in life be blessed with resources to sustain them, not be shackled by a paycheck. Can’t predict how the next generation church will look, but I appreciate that they are wrestling with this. I definitely see some creative church models in the future, which is exciting, because that means our methods are staying fresh with our culture, and our churches will not fade away, yet the gospel is always the same!
Thanks for your thoughts,
Tony

]]> By: Terrydorsett http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4338 Terrydorsett Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:49:13 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4338 I serve as the Director of Missions for Southern Baptists in Vermont. After 17 years of working with small churches served primarily by bivocational pastors, I have written a new book entitled Developing Leadership Teams in Bivocational Churches. It is published by Crossbooks, a division of Lifeway Christian Resources. I would love for you to share this resource with bivocational pastors in your circle of influence. There are so few current resources that have been developed just for them. <br><br>You can read all about the book and purchase as copy at:<br><br><a href="http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBookDetails.aspx?bookid=58188" rel="nofollow">http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBo...</a><br><br>or you can go to <a href="http://www.terrydorsett.com" rel="nofollow">www.terrydorsett.com</a> and click on the picture of the book.<br><br>Hope you find it helpful.<br><br>Dr. Terry W. Dorsett, Director<br>Green Mountain Baptist Association<br>30 Jones Brothers Way, Suite B<br>Barre VT 05641<br><a href="http://www.vermontbaptist.org" rel="nofollow">www.vermontbaptist.org</a> I serve as the Director of Missions for Southern Baptists in Vermont. After 17 years of working with small churches served primarily by bivocational pastors, I have written a new book entitled Developing Leadership Teams in Bivocational Churches. It is published by Crossbooks, a division of Lifeway Christian Resources. I would love for you to share this resource with bivocational pastors in your circle of influence. There are so few current resources that have been developed just for them.

You can read all about the book and purchase as copy at:

http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBo…

or you can go to http://www.terrydorsett.com and click on the picture of the book.

Hope you find it helpful.

Dr. Terry W. Dorsett, Director
Green Mountain Baptist Association
30 Jones Brothers Way, Suite B
Barre VT 05641
http://www.vermontbaptist.org

]]> By: Terrydorsett http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4273 Terrydorsett Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:49:13 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4273 I serve as the Director of Missions for Southern Baptists in Vermont. After 17 years of working with small churches served primarily by bivocational pastors, I have written a new book entitled Developing Leadership Teams in Bivocational Churches. It is published by Crossbooks, a division of Lifeway Christian Resources. I would love for you to share this resource with bivocational pastors in your circle of influence. There are so few current resources that have been developed just for them. <br><br>You can read all about the book and purchase as copy at:<br><br><a href="http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBookDetails.aspx?bookid=58188" rel="nofollow">http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBo...</a><br><br>or you can go to <a href="http://www.terrydorsett.com" rel="nofollow">www.terrydorsett.com</a> and click on the picture of the book.<br><br>Hope you find it helpful.<br><br>Dr. Terry W. Dorsett, Director<br>Green Mountain Baptist Association<br>30 Jones Brothers Way, Suite B<br>Barre VT 05641<br><a href="http://www.vermontbaptist.org" rel="nofollow">www.vermontbaptist.org</a> I serve as the Director of Missions for Southern Baptists in Vermont. After 17 years of working with small churches served primarily by bivocational pastors, I have written a new book entitled Developing Leadership Teams in Bivocational Churches. It is published by Crossbooks, a division of Lifeway Christian Resources. I would love for you to share this resource with bivocational pastors in your circle of influence. There are so few current resources that have been developed just for them.

You can read all about the book and purchase as copy at:

http://www.crossbooks.com/BookStore/BookStoreBo…

or you can go to http://www.terrydorsett.com and click on the picture of the book.

Hope you find it helpful.

Dr. Terry W. Dorsett, Director
Green Mountain Baptist Association
30 Jones Brothers Way, Suite B
Barre VT 05641
http://www.vermontbaptist.org

]]> By: Joemegf http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4192 Joemegf Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:24:50 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4192 I am currently bi-vocational and it is very hard. While I do get out and associate with others who wouldn't normally come to church, this also means that I have responsibilities towards another group besides the church and my family. To truly be a good worker, there are times I must put in extra hours there and work towards making that organization a better place as well. Therein lies the issue. What do I do when the church needs me and I am have responsibilities towards my other job? It's hard enough to balance your family life and church duties, but when a third group enters that also demands your time, talent, and treasure, it can get really difficult. I think if the church wants bi-vocational pastors, it needs to be ready for the pastor to not always be available on their schedule. They must respect the boundaries in the pastor's life and be willing to pick up some of the slack when he cannot be around. I think each church body will be forced to decide if they want their pastor available to them or are they willing to share their pastor with another job. Each body may make a different decision based on their needs. Think about it, when you are in a time of tragedy, will you be OK with your pastor not being there due to his work schedule at another job? Will you be OK with your pastor not being able to perform your wedding ceremony due to his work schedule? These things will come up and the body must be willing to deal with them in a way the supports the bi-vocational pastor. I am currently bi-vocational and it is very hard. While I do get out and associate with others who wouldn't normally come to church, this also means that I have responsibilities towards another group besides the church and my family. To truly be a good worker, there are times I must put in extra hours there and work towards making that organization a better place as well. Therein lies the issue. What do I do when the church needs me and I am have responsibilities towards my other job? It's hard enough to balance your family life and church duties, but when a third group enters that also demands your time, talent, and treasure, it can get really difficult. I think if the church wants bi-vocational pastors, it needs to be ready for the pastor to not always be available on their schedule. They must respect the boundaries in the pastor's life and be willing to pick up some of the slack when he cannot be around. I think each church body will be forced to decide if they want their pastor available to them or are they willing to share their pastor with another job. Each body may make a different decision based on their needs. Think about it, when you are in a time of tragedy, will you be OK with your pastor not being there due to his work schedule at another job? Will you be OK with your pastor not being able to perform your wedding ceremony due to his work schedule? These things will come up and the body must be willing to deal with them in a way the supports the bi-vocational pastor.

]]> By: Dave http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4137 Dave Fri, 09 Jul 2010 03:41:13 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4137 It's yours, man. Seriously, though, I just quit my ministerial position after being bi-vo at 2 churches over the last 8 years or so. Jesus is so dang smart. There is tremendous wisdom in his saying "No one can serve 2 masters". I know he wasn't talking about bivocational ministry, but it's true nonetheless. If you try to be the best professional minister and the best professional or employee at the same time, neither will be done as well as they could be. Part of this may have been my personality, or my profession (IT, which requires a tremendous amount of keeping-up-to-date), but I just couldn't do both without burning out and wrestling with which plate I needed to let drop. It's yours, man. Seriously, though, I just quit my ministerial position after being bi-vo at 2 churches over the last 8 years or so. Jesus is so dang smart. There is tremendous wisdom in his saying “No one can serve 2 masters”. I know he wasn't talking about bivocational ministry, but it's true nonetheless. If you try to be the best professional minister and the best professional or employee at the same time, neither will be done as well as they could be. Part of this may have been my personality, or my profession (IT, which requires a tremendous amount of keeping-up-to-date), but I just couldn't do both without burning out and wrestling with which plate I needed to let drop.

]]> By: Justin Wise http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4134 Justin Wise Fri, 09 Jul 2010 03:00:43 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4134 That quote is money. I'm totally stealing it! That quote is money. I'm totally stealing it!

]]> By: Dave http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4129 Dave Thu, 08 Jul 2010 19:47:07 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4129 One of my favorite Wendell Berry quotes spoke to me (as a bi-vocational pastor) on this:<br><br>"It seems to me that one of the most important things in ministerial training would be to teach them do do something besides be a preacher. Because...it's a bad thing to be professionally trapped. And I can't imagine a worse trap to fall into than a total dependence on being a minister. They ought to be taught to garden, to farm, carpenter, take care of themselves in some other way. And THEN they can tell the truth." - Wendell Berry, 2007 Convocation and Pastor's School. One of my favorite Wendell Berry quotes spoke to me (as a bi-vocational pastor) on this:

“It seems to me that one of the most important things in ministerial training would be to teach them do do something besides be a preacher. Because…it's a bad thing to be professionally trapped. And I can't imagine a worse trap to fall into than a total dependence on being a minister. They ought to be taught to garden, to farm, carpenter, take care of themselves in some other way. And THEN they can tell the truth.” – Wendell Berry, 2007 Convocation and Pastor's School.

]]> By: Is the era of ‘full-time ministry’ over? http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-4000 Is the era of ‘full-time ministry’ over? Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:37:13 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-4000 [...] Also weighing in on this topic recently was Justin Wise with a blog post called Bi-Vocationalism and the New Pastor in which he (accur­ately I think) says that: the role in the “super­hero” pastor is, … [...] [...] Also weighing in on this topic recently was Justin Wise with a blog post called Bi-Vocationalism and the New Pastor in which he (accur­ately I think) says that: the role in the “super­hero” pastor is, … [...]

]]> By: DM I.M.Cango http://bedeviant.com/bi-vocationalism-and-the-new-pastor/comment-page-1#comment-3906 DM I.M.Cango Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:32:14 +0000 http://www.bedeviant.com/?p=3408#comment-3906 It makes perfect sense. Most Christians are too cheap to want to pay a workman what he is worth. I remember one of your past posts about the tipping habits of born again Christians. One word- Cheap. Yes, time to accept the fact that most Christians in America talk the talk, but don't walk the walk when it comes to giving. I'm sure glad I'm not a pastor, for that is a sure fire way to starve to death if you expect your flock to pay you a living wage. It makes perfect sense. Most Christians are too cheap to want to pay a workman what he is worth. I remember one of your past posts about the tipping habits of born again Christians. One word- Cheap. Yes, time to accept the fact that most Christians in America talk the talk, but don't walk the walk when it comes to giving. I'm sure glad I'm not a pastor, for that is a sure fire way to starve to death if you expect your flock to pay you a living wage.

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